The 3/11 Truth Movement: Sonia Elijah on DarkHorse

Published date: July 12, 2026
Host: Dr. Bret Weinstein
Guest: Sonia Elijah
Podcast: DarkHorse Podcast / Inside Rail
Transcript source: SRTX transcript file

Video: Watch on Youtube
Audio: Listen on Spotify

Summary

Dr. Bret Weinstein speaks with investigative journalist Sonia Elijah about her book, 3/11: Viral Takeover, and her thesis that the World Health Organization’s March 11, 2020 pandemic declaration marked a “biological sequel” to 9/11—one that expanded emergency powers through public fear, surveillance, censorship, and mass compliance.

Elijah traces the pre-pandemic exercises and institutions she believes shaped the response, including Event 201, SAGE behavioral guidance, and the Trusted News Initiative, before turning to debates over the origin of SARS-CoV-2, influential lab-origin papers, lockdown modeling, vaccine passports and digital IDs, mRNA authorization and manufacturing, suppression of early treatments, PCR testing, censorship of vaccine-injured people, and the prospects for accountability.

About the Guest

Sonia Elijah is an investigative journalist, author, and former BBC researcher with a background in economics. She publishes forensic-style reports and interviews at Sonia Elijah Investigates and contributes to Brownstone Institute. Her book, 3/11: Viral Takeover, examines the COVID era through public records, Freedom of Information releases, leaked documents, scientific literature, and interviews. Follow Sonia Elijah at Sonia Elijah Investigates, on X, and at Brownstone Institute.

About the Host

Dr. Bret Weinstein is an evolutionary biologist, author, and host of the DarkHorse Podcast. Through long-form conversations and analysis, he examines science, institutions, politics, culture, and the challenges facing Western civilization.

Mentioned

• 3/11: Viral Takeover (commission earned)

• Sonia Elijah Investigates

• Sonia Elijah on X

• Sonia Elijah at Brownstone Institute

• Event 201 Pandemic Tabletop Exercise

• The Great Barrington Declaration

• “The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2” in Nature Medicine

• Imperial College COVID-19 Report 9

• Lancet statement supporting scientists in China

• The Disinformation Dozen report

Episode Chapters

• 00:00:00 The Biological Compliance

• 00:04:08 The Blueprint for Mass Compliance

• 00:07:41 Sponsor: Sundays for Dogs

• 00:09:32 Sponsor: Sundries Farm

• 00:12:27 Event 201: Drill or Foreknowledge?

• 00:17:31 SARS-CoV-2’s American Origins?

• 00:25:24 HIV Inserts & Fauci’s Emails

• 00:28:40 Sponsor: Xlear

• 00:30:38 The Papers That Buried the Lab Leak

• 00:36:24 How Lockdowns Were Sold

• 00:43:16 Digital IDs and the Censorship State

• 00:50:56 The Emergency That Unleashed mRNA

• 00:59:04 Why Early Treatments Had to Fail

• 01:09:13 PCR Tests and Manufactured Fear

• 01:17:35 Digital IDs & the Data They Hid

• 01:20:20 A Live Indictment, Not a Post-Mortem

• 01:33:31 Where to Find Sonia Elijah’s Book

Main Topics

• 3/11 as a proposed biological sequel to 9/11

• Emergency powers, surveillance, and psychological conditioning

• Event 201 and pre-pandemic preparedness exercises

• SAGE behavioral guidance and government fear messaging

• The Trusted News Initiative and COVID-era censorship

• SARS-CoV-2 origins, EcoHealth Alliance, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and DEFUSE

• The Lancet statement, the Proximal Origin paper, and conflicts of interest

• Imperial College Report 9, lockdowns, and the Great Barrington Declaration

• Vaccine passports, digital IDs, and social-media age verification

• mRNA emergency authorization, manufacturing processes, and regulatory concerns

• Hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, Surgisphere, and early-treatment suppression

• PCR testing, hospital protocols, vaccine-injury censorship, and accountability

Search Keywords

Bret Weinstein, Sonia Elijah, DarkHorse Podcast, Inside Rail, 3/11 Viral Takeover, COVID-19, coronavirus pandemic, March 11 2020, World Health Organization, Event 201, Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, SAGE, Trusted News Initiative, BBC, censorship, misinformation, digital ID, vaccine passport, SARS-CoV-2 origins, lab leak, Wuhan Institute of Virology, EcoHealth Alliance, Peter Daszak, Shi Zhengli, Ralph Baric, DEFUSE proposal, DARPA, Anthony Fauci, Francis Collins, Jeremy Farrar, Kristian Andersen, Proximal Origin, The Lancet, Great Barrington Declaration, Sunetra Gupta, Jay Bhattacharya, Martin Kulldorff, Neil Ferguson, Imperial College Report 9, mRNA vaccines, Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, emergency use authorization, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, Surgisphere, PCR testing, Kary Mullis, vaccine injury, Brownstone Institute

Transcript

This transcript was prepared from the episode’s speaker-labeled SRTX caption file and lightly consolidated into readable paragraphs. Timestamps mark the beginning of each passage.

[00:00:00] Bret Weinstein: Hey folks, welcome to the DarkHorse Podcast Inside Rail. I am delighted to be sitting with Sonia Elijah today in person here in the formerly wonderful British Empire. No, not really an empire anymore, but nonetheless the formerly fabulous Britain, which is now teetering on the brink of collapse, unfortunately. But in any case, Sonia, welcome to DarkHorse.

[00:00:27] Sonia Elijah: Thank you Bret. Thank you very much for having me on your show.

[00:00:30] Bret Weinstein: Really delighted to be able to do it, especially in person. I should tell the audience, for those who don't know you, you are a former researcher for the BBC. You're currently an independent journalist. People who find your name familiar may know you through Brownstone, where you have published many articles. And you have now published a book, a rather thorough review of the COVID debacle. You have a copy here. You want to hold that up?

[00:01:03] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, this is my personal one. Yeah. Nicely tabbed and squeezed and highlighted.

[00:01:10] Bret Weinstein: You can tell that you've been female from the beginning, by the way. You've annotated your own book. It's marvelous. So your book is titled 3/11: Viral Takeover, obviously an allusion to 9/11, a topic that was very hard to discuss until fairly recently. People have become more broad-minded about thinking about the anomalies of 9/11. But what is it that you see as parallel between these two stories?

[00:01:39] Sonia Elijah: Yes. Essentially what I see as parallel is that you have a major disruptive event that leads to obviously fear, understandably, but out of the fear, you have massive expanded powers of the state. And it's sort of this recurring pattern that I see. So I see 3/11, which is March the 11th, 2020. That is the day the World Health Organization declared COVID to be a pandemic. I see it as a biological sequel to 9/11.

[00:02:14] Sonia Elijah: And also, Bret, what we saw with 9/11, we saw how the rise of the Patriot Act. We saw this sort of massive use of surveillance coming out of that and sort of surveillance of citizens by the state. With 3/11, we have obviously the rise of the Patriot Act and the equivalents around the world of the coronavirus act. And now you have mass citizen compliance with the state. We have this phenomenal use of people just complying with these rules that were forced upon them. So there is, you know, there I see a parallel.

[00:03:01] Bret Weinstein: Yes. I would say in retrospect, many of the absurdities of the COVID debacle appeared to be a training exercise. Perfectly arbitrary judgments of what a safe distance to stand was, requirements that we walk around the supermarket clockwise or it was. And these things, of course, had no relevance to public health. They were not measures based on some sort of analysis. It was like a diabolical game of Simon Says, where we were told what we must do and anyone who didn't do it was viewed as morally broken. We were somehow not taking the virus seriously enough.

[00:03:49] Bret Weinstein: We were selfish and not respecting the right of others not to become infected. And of course, it was nonsense, but maybe it wasn't. Maybe the point was the population needs to be trained to listen to authority or else.

[00:04:08] Bret Weinstein: Yeah.

[00:04:08] Sonia Elijah: I see it as this psychological conditioning of the public, Bret. And it was from the very beginning. I mean, there's an extensive timeline I have at the beginning of the book and I wrote it just to give additional context for the reader. And you see the traces. So even the year prior, we go back to 2019, you have these pandemic training simulation exercises going on. But the one that I find is really, that I grabbed my attention was Event 201 that took place in the fall of 2019.

[00:04:48] Sonia Elijah: It was hosted by the Johns Hopkins Center, partnered with the World Economic Forum and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. And there what we saw, Bret, we saw the recommendations of what they seemed to be been really taking out of it, where it was…They wrote that governments need to work closely with the private sector. They highlighted social-media companies and traditional-media companies. They need to work together to come up with nimble approaches to combating disinformation, misinformation.

[00:05:24] Sonia Elijah: And what did we see, which is essentially what they deem as misinformation, what we saw with 3/11, our post-3/11, we saw this widespread, rampant use of censorship. And, you know, big tech, we've got obviously, you know, what I'd like to allude is the Trusted News Initiative came out of this. So, March 27th, 2020, with the Trusted News Initiative, which is led by the BBC, it is essentially a cross-platform censorship network. So, it's legacy media with big tech coming together to decide what is misinformation. And any voice that deviates from this official narrative is classified as, you know, you're spreading misinformation and you get essentially misinformation. So, that came out of it. So, and so the blueprint was already, you know, set in stone prior to 3/11.

[00:06:32] Sonia Elijah: And what we saw, and I particularly wrote about that from the British standpoint as a British citizen, what went on in the U.K. with these sort of project fear, we had the government messaging at the time, and obviously hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money spent on this, on essentially frightening the public senseless, completely using weaponizing fear. And we have, the book has a lot of exhibits and some screenshots of a early SAGE meeting. SAGE stands for the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies. They advise the government, made up of behavioral scientists.

[00:07:14] Sonia Elijah: And they literally came up with how can we, we need to use the media to increase sense of personal threat. And they have a paper, a white paper, and there are screenshots of it in the book. And coercion, they actually outline nine ways to modify behavior, to bring about behavior change. And coercion is one of them. It's just, yeah, very unsettling.

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[00:12:27] Bret Weinstein: All right, I want to ask you about event 201. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and a certain amount of time speaking publicly about the question of tabletop exercises. I'm convinced that there's something very important in their existence. They mean something that we in the community I think have not fully worked out. I don't know what it is. I have a hypothesis, but what's so surprising here is that event 201 with very slight modifications previews the COVID pandemic.

[00:13:04] Bret Weinstein: It certainly takes many of the people who the globalists would probably call stakeholders and it trains them so that their reaction is already loaded at the point that the emergency happens. Now this is very disturbing if that's what event 201 was because ostensibly nobody knew there was going to be a pandemic. Yet here you have many of the forces that were so corrosive to civilization and so destructive of our rights. They're literally sitting in a room practicing to shut down the spread of what they would go on to call mis-, dis-, and malinformation.

[00:13:46] Bret Weinstein: But what I want to understand is obviously for those who know that the event happened, it is a red flag. Did they have foreknowledge? That's a powerful question. Maybe it wasn't so surprising. Maybe they knew it was coming. But why, if you did know it was coming, would you run the risk of a public exercise that would certainly be spotted, at least in the aftermath, by many who were beginning to work out what it was that took place?

[00:14:16] Bret Weinstein: So my hypothesis has been that it actually has a purpose you can't circumvent. Not only does it train people who will then go on to robotically do what they thought was sophisticated in that room, but I wonder if it doesn't also spread a kind of sketch of what's coming so that those who might find a stake in such an event would begin thinking about how they would go on to monetize it and to utilize it to their own ends, thereby bringing in powerful forces who can be helpful. In other words, getting people to freelance their role in the so-called emergency.

[00:15:00] Bret Weinstein: And I wonder, the one question I've had all along is, if they were running tabletop exercises every year or two on pandemics, then it wouldn't be so surprising to find one the year prior. If they're rare, then it is very surprising and it constitutes a kind of evidence of foreknowledge. Do you know how common these things are?

[00:15:24] Sonia Elijah: I don't think, I mean, obviously there's been several, but I don't think it happens just on a regular basis, like clockwork. I'm sure they're quite hard to pull together as well. So in answer to your question, I'm not sure how regularly. I don't think they would be, like I said, like every couple of months they're doing a pandemic exercise.

[00:15:48] Bret Weinstein: Yeah, I have found no evidence that they are a common feature, which then does raise the question. And I think this is one of the remaining questions for COVID. We've effectively shown the virus was not natural, that it had been modified technologically. We've shown that there were medicines that were in fact known to be effective against closely related viruses, in fact, useful against any RNA-based virus. We've discovered that there was awareness of the hazard of the gene therapies, which were falsely called vaccines.

[00:16:30] Bret Weinstein: We now know that the evidence that these things were effective at all in preventing people from contracting it certainly did not exist. And in fact, these things were not effective in preventing people from getting COVID. They in fact caused people to be more likely to contract the disease. So we've shown a lot of things. What we haven't shown yet, as far as I'm concerned, is evidence that the entire thing was deliberate. And I truly do not know.

[00:16:59] Bret Weinstein: I think on the one hand, this looks to have been a virus whose origin is more North Carolina than Wuhan Institute. Doesn't mean the virus didn't emerge from the Wuhan Institute. And it doesn't mean that it didn't leak accidentally. On the other hand, Event 201 suggests somebody knew there was going to be a pandemic. It doesn't prove it, but it suggests it. So I wonder, do you think this leaked naturally from the Wuhan Institute?

[00:17:30] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, you raise very, very valid points,

[00:17:33] Sonia Elijah: very good questions. I do believe that it was a, I mean, it's interesting and you recently did an ex-post on flagging a sort of DOD document where it actually states that the virus is an American-created recombinant vaccine or its precursor virus. This has to do with SARS-CoV-2 coming out of an EcoHealth Alliance program at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. So the first two chapters of my book, Bret, I heavily go into the origin story.

[00:18:15] Sonia Elijah: And I really look at what was the, you know, this is Batwoman, her name is Dr. Shi Zhengli, who was one of the leading scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. What were they doing at the time? And you look at their sort of seminal papers they were writing, 2013, she wrote a paper with Peter Daszak, who was leading EcoHealth Alliance, a New York City nonprofit. And they were, you know, essentially tinkering around with coronaviruses, getting, you know, bat feces samples and doing what they were doing but what you see is that in 2015, she wrote a paper with Ralph Baric at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where they essentially take the backbone of a SARS virus, they replace its spike protein and put in a spike protein of a bat coronavirus.

[00:19:12] Sonia Elijah: So they're developing a chimeric virus, two viruses together, and they're essentially saying, "How can we make it more infectious? How can we, you know, I mean, it's astounding what they would do."

[00:19:23] Bret Weinstein: How can we make it infectious to people?

[00:19:25] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, exactly. They were using humanized mice and agents like that. So in the book, there is a reference to a significant memorandum written by, and this was written, this was around August 2021. He warned the Inspector General of the Department of Defense. This is Major Joseph Murphy, a former DARPA fellow, stating that SARS-CoV-2 is American created and it's coming, it's, you know, essentially what your post was about, but actually the wording is lifted from the memorandum.

[00:20:08] Sonia Elijah: Excuse me. So, and we know that this was going on. So, and he is referring though, Major Murphy, to a EcoHealth Alliance grant proposal. So this is what they submitted to DARPA and this is the defuse project. Now, this defuse project got leaked, I think around the fall of 2021. And it was published on the drastic, that online group drastic, their website. And it essentially says that they, this is EcoHealth Alliance asking for US$14 million, asking DARPA for money.

[00:20:51] Sonia Elijah: It's going to be, you know, stating they're going to be collaborating, you know, with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, University of North Carolina. This is Ralph Baric. And they're going to be essentially vaccinating bats. They're going to be taking lots of samples, but they're going to be doing basically gain of function studies. It's very overt.

[00:21:13] Bret Weinstein: I would say also just to, I don't mean to interrupt, but that proposal describes exactly the virus that we saw.

[00:21:22] Sonia Elijah: Exactly.

[00:21:23] Bret Weinstein: It describes exactly the proposal to create exactly the virus we saw. Right. Now it was rejected. Yes. The proposal was rejected, which does not mean what people think it means because in science, the game of science, the game of science funding often has people doing work before they get the grant. In other words, they do the work prospectively, then they propose it, then they get paid to do it and it's already done.

[00:21:48] Bret Weinstein: So the question is, did they actually do it? And then for whatever reason, it was rejected, but then the world was the pandemic.

[00:21:55] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. You raise a very good point. And what is also interesting, Bret, if you look at my timeline that I create at the beginning of the book, what do you think happens September 2019 at the Wuhan Institute of Virology? Do you know what went on?

[00:22:10] Bret Weinstein: Well, I did at one point know the timeline. I know that there is significant evidence that the virus was actually already circulating at the Wuhan games in the fall of 2019. I know there was a shutdown around the Wuhan Institute.

[00:22:27] Sonia Elijah: So what was interesting is that, yes, just before the games, these are the military games you're talking about. I think that happened in October. In September you had, so they had the world's biggest database of coronavirus samples, like that massive database. And it was Dr. Shi this is the Batwoman, the Bat Lady that people refer her to. That gets shut down. That goes offline. So that is quite, it kind of rings some alarm bells. Why were they suddenly shutting that down? Why were they, what were they hiding?

[00:23:00] Sonia Elijah: You know, so there's a few, there's a few red flags here, you know, leading up to the event. And yeah, it's just quite a lot of anomalies.

[00:23:14] Bret Weinstein: I should also add, since it will have been a long time since people have thought about this part of the story, there's a very telling moment early on before Shi Zhengli was effectively silenced by the CCP. She said that when she first got word of SARS-CoV-2 circulating, that she was terrified and unable to sleep out of fear that it may have leaked out of her lab. And that she then investigated and was greatly relieved to discover that it had not.

[00:23:52] Bret Weinstein: I don't know whether to believe her. Actually, there's a part of me that does. And it is among the possibilities that are on the table, among the still standing viable hypotheses, the virus may have been released on Wuhan's doorstep in order effectively to frame them and to provide an alibi for Ralph Baric and his lab at North Carolina.

[00:24:20] Bret Weinstein: If that is what happened, it is then mysterious that the Chinese begin acting quite guilty as if it is their virus. But I always wondered about whether actually Shi Zhengli was telling it like it is and that the guilty behavior of the CCP was about something else and whether or not if Event 201 was indeed based on foreknowledge that there was going to be an emergency, that it was going to be useful to powerful forces, and that the Wuhan Institute was going to take the blame, then her reaction would make perfect sense that this is a virus that could conceivably have leaked from Wuhan, but it didn't.

[00:25:05] Bret Weinstein: So if we are to get to the bottom of the story, I would love to know the answer to that question because of course if this came from Ralph Baric's lab and it was dropped in Wuhan intentionally, then the question is, "Oh, well, what was the purpose of this?" And that goes straight to your point about control.

[00:25:23] Sonia Elijah: Absolutely.

[00:25:24] Sonia Elijah: I also want to raise the point with the HIV inserts, right Bret? So I think that's quite important. So January 31st, 2020, we have a group of Indian scientists who publish a paper. This is the Pradhan et al. paper, and they publish it on a pre-print server. These scientists, what they discovered when they were looking at the genomic sequence of SARS-CoV-2, they found four unique HIV inserts. This is to do with on the spike protein where it was a perfect match for HIV.

[00:26:02] Bret Weinstein: So these are genetic inserts. When the SARS-CoV-2 virus produces protein, it contains amino acid sequences that are analogous to what's in HIV.

[00:26:13] Sonia Elijah: And when they did 3D modeling, they realized that three out of the four inserts converge in the region of the receptor binding domain. This is where the virus, I guess, can converge onto host cells. And they said that this is virtually impossible to get from nature, that there's no way that evolution can do it so perfectly. So they raised the alarm. They were like, "This needs further investigation." And then what happened is that literally two days later, this paper gets withdrawn.

[00:26:50] Sonia Elijah: And this is when I want to introduce the – these are the leaked – these are – no, the Freedom of Information Act-released emails. This is from the NIH. So these are all the Fauci emails. So I went through all of, like, thousands of these emails, Fauci, but, you know, who was leading NIAID at the time, with Francis Collins, who was heading NIH. And you've got these very interesting email exchanges going on by these elite scientists at the time. And they're flagging this paper. They're like, "This is a really outlandish business." Fauci's saying, "This paper's really outlandish. Have you read it?"

[00:27:30] Sonia Elijah: And they're all sort of getting a bit worried about it. Very quickly, a teleconference is arranged on February 1st, on the Saturday, okay? And this is led by – and who arranges this? Sir Jeremy Farrar, who was leading the Wellcome Trust at the time. Now, the Wellcome Trust is the most wealthy, non-profit – it's a charitable foundation that invests in sort of research, scientific research. Its portfolio is heavily tied to the pharmaceutical – to pharmaceutical companies.

[00:28:05] Sonia Elijah: Anyway, so Jeremy Farrar – and they are scrambling. And they're trying to convince the public that they could sense the urgency of, "We've got to put down these – condemn these conspiracy theories," right? That it came out of the lab.

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[00:30:38] Sonia Elijah: So, I take these – there's three influential papers that happened around that time, which literally condemned the – you know, as they labeled them as conspiracy theories. This has to do with the lab leak origin. And you have that half the people on the call ended up being authors of these three papers, which the beginning of the book goes into. I dissect these papers, all published in prestigious journals. And so, we have the joint statement that was published in the Lancet, written – I let her co-signatories, 27 scientists, sign that statement. Peter Daszak actually orchestrated that joint statement to show his support. And he said, actually, this is an email. It's all in my book.

[00:31:32] Sonia Elijah: We need to show – he was asked by people in China to do it, to show – you know, to show that they're supporting, praising their work, their response to this novel virus. So, he leads the way. 26 out of the 27 scientists who signed that statement, who say, "We strongly condemn that the lab – those – you know, we disagree that the – we brand it essentially as a conspiracy anybody saying that it comes from a lab." 26 out of the 27 had ties to either the Wuhan Institute of Virology or its funders.

[00:32:15] Sonia Elijah: So, huge red flags of conflicts of interest. Now, those conflicts of interest were never disclosed at that time. It took a whole year later, I think, for a note to be added to that paper. This is to do with Peter Daszak's conflict of interest with his work with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And it really is very revealing, these email exchanges. And, you know, you've got Francis Collins. And obviously, we've got the second paper, which has ended up being the most influential scientific paper in history. That's what it was called. This is the proximal origin paper authored by Kristian Andersen and many others.

[00:33:03] Bret Weinstein: People who privately, in their emails with Fauci, recognized the very same signatures of genetic engineering that DRASTIC and others noticed. So, privately, they knew the truth. And I must tell you, of all of the maddening features of the entire episode, the idea that we were going to be gaslit for correctly interpreting evidence, I find this such an egregious breach of our scientific obligations to each other. They didn't just pretend to disagree.

[00:33:39] Bret Weinstein: They knew what we knew and they called us crazy publicly. Yes. Right. That it's hard to put into words how deep a breach that is. Yes. You to call people who are correctly understanding evidence crazy is so sinister. And it's far from the only time it's happened.

[00:34:00] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. Yeah. They wanted to shut down open scientific discourse. Absolutely. And you have even an email from Francis Collins that he's dismayed. He's really upset. He's saying, "I really thought this paper," this is referring to the proximal origin paper, "should put a stop to all these conspiracy theories about the lab." So, yeah,

[00:34:26] Sonia Elijah: I'd say censorship of the science. And that's what went on coming out this whole-

[00:34:34] Bret Weinstein: It's not even censorship. It's something else that doesn't have a name. What you're talking about is the destruction of reason. Yeah. Right? It's not that you have your perspective and I have mine. You are literally going after my reputation because I am thinking rationally, logically, and understanding what it is that I'm seeing. Yeah. It's next level in terms of a cover-up. And frankly, the reason it's so important to me is that the corruption of science is not local to an event like this. It's pervasive. It's discipline after discipline.

[00:35:14] Bret Weinstein: And if you live in an era like that, that looks scientifically vibrant, like it's tremendously productive, while at the same time, all of these fields are corrupted by bad incentives to say the least. We in the public have a right to say, "Actually, I don't believe that that drug that the standard of care is safe just because you have a paper that claims it is because the corruption is pervasive." So we get a right to record this incident and to say, "Look what you did.

[00:35:47] Bret Weinstein: You knew the truth and you pretended the exact inverse and you did it with a straight face and you destroyed reputations over it." That's the standard of science now. And we have a right now to do science elsewhere. It's not the right place, but podcasts. Do you really want to be talking about science on podcasts? Does that sound like a good system to you? No, it doesn't sound like a good fucking system to me, but you've destroyed the system that is good. Destroyed it.

[00:36:14] Bret Weinstein: So we have a right now to do this in other venues precisely because you've destroyed the venues where it should be done and that's not our fault.

[00:36:24] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, well said. Absolutely. And also, just the way they treated, for example, what comes to mind is the Great Barrington Declaration. So you have doctors, Sunetra Gupta, Jay Bhattacharya, Martin Kulldorff, who were proposing focused protection and not against universal lockdowns. They were demonized. They were smeared. You have, again, Francis Collins referring to them in an email, these three fringe scientists, and the whole world condemned them that they were spreading dangerous theories that they would.

[00:37:03] Bret Weinstein: Literally putting people in danger of death.

[00:37:06] Sonia Elijah: Yes, putting people in danger. And when we look at the corruption of science and those papers, for example, what got us into lockdown is report 9. I would say that would be the sink if I had to highlight which paper. This is a heavily flawed paper coming out of Imperial College London by Professor Neil Ferguson, heavily compromised. His ties with Gavi and heavily funded by the Gates Foundation and the Wellcome Trust. And his history is so bad with these alarmist projections with his modeling.

[00:37:43] Sonia Elijah: So if you look at his track record, what he, you know, with foot and mouth disease, with avian flu, swine flu, always saying like thousands are going to die. They never materialized. So March 2020, we had this paper coming out that says if we do not lock down that US are going to have about two and a half million deaths by the summer of that year, UK we're going to see about half a million, heavily flawed that, you know, it and this was the paper that literally shut down the world.

[00:38:14] Bret Weinstein: It was the paper that was used to shut down the world.

[00:38:18] Sonia Elijah: Yes, used of the preface of it, you know, and they were looking at they never looked, they ignored early data that was coming at the time. You had a Nobel Laureate Michael Levitt at the time saying, look, it's the it's coming down like the infection, you know, it's not spreading as rapidly. It's slowing down. They ignored the early data from the Diamond Princess cruise ship, which it was this was a much lower infection fatality ratio.

[00:38:48] Sonia Elijah: That's what it was signaling. And they they, yes, it was it was heavily flawed. And even I think the code that they did the modeling on was not available. It was never peer reviewed. It was very secretive. And the whole world, the whole world, yeah, that was used to shut down the world and cause catastrophic harms. What we saw with education, the children, you know, school shutting down, how the elderly were treated in care homes.

[00:39:18] Sonia Elijah: It was a really awful time. And they got away with that because people, like I said, they use they weaponized fear so much it arrested people's critical thinking skills.

[00:39:32] Bret Weinstein: Yes, it specifically went after people with two capability of thinking for themselves and courage. Yeah, they went after them across the board. Doctors lost their licenses. They lost their practices. They were derided as quacks. People at the tops of their fields, highly published, beautifully credentialed people were called by all sorts of names and treated as if they'd lost their minds. And that has to have a reputational for the people who did it.

[00:40:05] Bret Weinstein: The people who were derided, very few of them have recovered their positions. Jay Bhattacharya being one of the few, but he was literally derided as a fringe epidemiologist. Yes, even though his position was perfectly borne out. And just to complete this, this case, the the idea that modeling was going to be used as evidence and the basis of lockdowns if you know anything about modeling, you know, it's unreliable as a test of anything because you can literally build a model to tell you whatever you want to tell you.

[00:40:43] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:40:43] Bret Weinstein: Question is, you know, how did you parameterize it?

[00:40:46] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:40:47] Bret Weinstein: And so I would argue model is a perfectly valid source of a hypothesis. Nevermore. It can't be more. It is capable of being more. You need the empirical evidence. And these models are still being used to confuse the public. You know, told, oh, yes, the vaccine saved millions

[00:41:05] Sonia Elijah: of lives based on modeling,

[00:41:07] Bret Weinstein: based on pure modeling. And it's nonsense. Basically, the point is they ask the model to tell them that it saved millions of lives. And it did. No surprise. Right. Not evidence. And the evidence really goes in the other direction. So the hard part is it is much easier, especially from a position of power, to confuse the public with things that seem scientific than it is to unconfuse them by talking them through how the magic trick is done.

[00:41:35] Bret Weinstein: Right. So we're just at a fundamental disadvantage because, you know, explaining why a model isn't good is difficult. Yeah. Explaining that the model said we're going to have this many deaths. Right. You know, you need to understand that when somebody you know, your skepticism should go through the roof. Yeah. So, you know, and we're in this funny place now. I mean, you've now released this beautiful book at a moment when everybody is so sick of talking about COVID. They just want to move on.

[00:42:08] Bret Weinstein: And it's hard to compel them that however much fear you might have about what you did if you took the shots, however much fatigue you have at thinking about this, however much you want to go back to normal life. If you do that, it will keep happening.

[00:42:26] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:42:26] Bret Weinstein: Right. They've preserved the architecture. Even if we won many battles and prove many things that they said were false, we have to complete the project. We have to pursue this. We have to do work like yours that catalogs what actually took place. And that, in retrospect, it seems very clear that whatever this pandemic was, whether it was A, plan from the get-go or B, capitalizing on an accidental leak of a biologically engineered virus, it has to be one of those two, whichever one of those it is, knowing who took advantage of this and for what is vital because the purpose wasn't about biology. The purpose was about governmental control and the controls remain even if the pandemic has receded.

[00:43:15] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:17] Sonia Elijah: What we saw, this is why my book takes us through the aftermath, which is the, what I see, this rise of digital authoritarianism we are seeing across the West. I mean, for example, and I see, let's say, take vaccine passports that were used. Those were the proof, that was proof of concept that it would work, that you could get people to comply, that you could say that your right, your fundamental right of travel work is now conditional on a government-approved digital credential.

[00:43:53] Sonia Elijah: This is extremely frightening. And what we have now, Bret, I mean, in this country, they are heavily pushing digital IDs. We have, obviously, now just recently, and I've written about this on my sub-stack, that the UK government are going to be banning social media for under 16s, right? And the way I see that, that is, they're using the thing, a highly emotive issue of, of course, children's safety. We all care about children's safety online.

[00:44:24] Sonia Elijah: But it's a Trojan horse, I see it, for mandatory digital ID. And I think that post-3/11, we are in this heightened sense of, you know, it's all about control, censorship, yes. And, and I dissect the machinery of censorship in this book as well. We have, you know, for example, the NGO, the nonprofit American-British, you know, this is CCDH, the Center for Countering Digital Hate. It's very interesting how they came. They're very tied in with this because they, they published this report called the Disinformation Dozen, which I'm sure you're aware of, and RFK Jr. was flagged.

[00:45:13] Sonia Elijah: Many other scientists and doctors actually said he was also flagged, and I've interviewed him as well, Dr. Sherry Tenpenny. And they were this, so this, this organization, they did this report saying these dozen people are responsible for all the sort of anti-vax sentiment online. It's all coming from these people. They need to be shut down. They need to be censored. They need to be deplatformed. What we saw was this coordinated takedown of any dissenting voice. And this is even starting from against lockdowns.

[00:45:48] Sonia Elijah: And I haven't even mentioned testing debacle, which I could talk quite a lot about the testing scams against the, you know, the use of these genetic shots, the harms from these shots, all shut down. But the CCDH, which is, they did a very, they essentially laid out the blueprint for mass suppression, mass censorship, because they were instrumental in the sort of birth of the Online Safety Act, which we have in the UK, which is the most sweeping piece of digital control legislation that we across, you know, that was ever, it is the, you know, the most sweeping and most draconian.

[00:46:35] Sonia Elijah: And they brag about, you know, how they advise the government on that and how they advise the EU on their Digital Services Act, which is the equivalent in the EU. What do we have out of that? We have, we're living in such a controlled society, but it goes deeper than that, Bret. It's not just what you say online, because obviously we know that you could get arrested. I think there's on average 30 arrests a day in the UK on tweets, on posts that you write on these, you know, it could offend somebody, it could incite hatred. They've made that illegal, right, inciting violence, hatred.

[00:47:13] Sonia Elijah: But what you've got is, you've got them also conditioning people how to think. So my book also look at how NATO was involved in all of this. So you have at the time, you've got NATO publishing a report called the inoculation theory and misinformation. It was written by two Cambridge scientists funded by the World Health Organization, the UK cabinet office. And they are saying that we need to inoculate society, give them a vaccine in a sense to be aware of misinformation, disinformation. So we're going to basically build up their resilience. So you can play these games. These online games, like for example, going viral.

[00:48:04] Sonia Elijah: And that it's a role playing game where you get to sort of, you know, you get to identify, you know, the misinformation that's being spread. And in that way, you can build resilience to it and you can argue against it. They are conditioning people how to think and how to preempt it, you know. So it's very, very insidious. It's deeper than just, okay, you can't see that that's removed, that's blocked. It's actually training you how to think.

[00:48:34] Sonia Elijah: Yes. It's brainwashing.

[00:48:35] Bret Weinstein: It's brainwashing and it's perfectly Orwellian. It is effectively a direct hit on Western civilization.

[00:48:45] Sonia Elijah: Absolutely.

[00:48:45] Bret Weinstein: And the problem is, it is actually indifferent to topic. We were trained under the the ostensible explanation of COVID into believing that the good people believe these things. Those who are outside of those beliefs are inherently bad and dangerous and that we must present a united front in shutting down the things they say. One of course, Western civilization is based on the idea that the way we figure out what's true is that we discuss whatever it feels like should be discussed and, you know, better ideas outcompete worse ideas. Is it perfect? No, no one ever said it was. Most ideas are probably bad and wrong.

[00:49:32] Bret Weinstein: But the way you find the good ones is through interaction, not through some top down of reality in which everything else can safely be shut down because it's false. Where did anybody get the idea that the people at the top know what's true? Where would they have found out what's true? I mean, it's inconceivable. It doesn't make sense. But because it came with these coercive measures, these penalties, the fact is people fell in line.

[00:50:05] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:50:06] Bret Weinstein: And I will say, one of the troubling facts is that many, many people who did know better took the shots.

[00:50:15] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:50:15] Bret Weinstein: Why? Because they correctly deployed all of these penalties if you refused. You had to effectively be self-employed, not needing to travel, willing to take a giant hit in terms of your quality of life in order to say no to these things. And a lot of people, I mean, Robert Malone, he took the shots and got hurt.

[00:50:42] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:50:43] Bret Weinstein: He knew that these things weren't safe, but he had to travel. And, you know, the number of people in the dissident community who have that story, "I took it because" is shocking.

[00:50:54] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[00:50:54] Bret Weinstein: And it's a lesson for next time.

[00:50:56] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. I mean, you introduced the shots, which I would like to talk about. I even believe that the lockdowns were the vehicle to usher in the shots, right? And we know that the event itself, 3/11, that it took an unprecedented health event, or a crisis, a disruptive event to usher in this new technology. And if you look at mRNA technology, the book documents the rise of mRNA tech, the rise of Moderna, all of, you know, this rise of the biodefense industrial complex as well that we're seeing. Well, that actually came out of the Project BioShield, the act in 2004. This is following the anthrax attacks.

[00:51:42] Sonia Elijah: You know, I look at the history. There's always, you know, and the pattern that keeps recurring. So, Moderna and BioNTech had failed to bring any of their mRNA products to market prior to 3/11. So, because they always failed the safety testing. They were highly toxic.

[00:52:01] Bret Weinstein: You needed an emergency in order to truncate the safety testing.

[00:52:05] Sonia Elijah: Absolutely. To rush through, to jump through all the hurdles. And there were so many red flags at the time, because I also dissect, these are the leaked European Medicines Agency emails. I don't know if you've come across them, Bret. But what we saw is that around November 2020, this is pre-authorization. This is running up to the kind of green light for it. You had the EMA, which is a European Medicines Agency, the regulator, discussing amongst themselves, these are confidential emails that were leaked, and I've written about them. There's screenshots of the book.

[00:52:44] Sonia Elijah: They're stating that there is a significant – they're objecting to – this is to do with the commercial batches of the Pfizer shot. There's a drop in mRNA technology. So, they are very concerned, because they don't know the safety and efficacy implications of that. I think it drops down from like 78% in the clinical batches down to 55% in the commercial batches that were rolled out to the public. Okay. So, you have all that going on, and they're like, "We don't know what to do. This is a major objection." And the way they sort of resolve it is literally lowering the threshold down to 50%.

[00:53:23] Sonia Elijah: And this is how intact the mRNA molecule is. And it's just deeply

[00:53:31] Sonia Elijah: disturbing, because they knew something was wrong, even with the quality of the product. And also, we have now this whole DNA contamination scandal coming out of that. And I interviewed Josh Guetzkow. He's a lecturer at the Hebrew University in Israel. And he was the first to sort of coin as Pfizer's bait and switch. And what he identified was essentially that we have two processes of making this product. This has to do with the Pfizer-BioNTech product.

[00:54:05] Sonia Elijah: Versus Process 2. Process 1 was used in the clinical trial, small batches. I think they cleaned the product better.

[00:54:16] Bret Weinstein: I think they used a PCR technology that did not involve DNA at all.

[00:54:21] Sonia Elijah: Did not avoid plasmid DNA used from E. coli, but Process 2 did. And this is why you've got so, I think, hundreds of billions of molecules of plasmid DNA residue left in the vials when independent scientists like Kevin McKernan were first analyzed these vials. And actually, they found it also in the Moderna vaccine as well. But they also found traces of SV40 genetic sequences, which is very alarming because of its oncogenic potential, right? The risks of inducing

[00:54:58] Bret Weinstein: So SV40 is a reference to simian virus 40, which is a problem for humans because of it initially emerged in polio vaccine manufacture, where I think it was green monkey kidneys were used to produce the vaccine and this unknown virus, nobody knew there was the virus, managed to make it into the vaccines and therefore into people. And so simian virus 40 has oncogenic potential. The promoter, which is the piece that's found in the COVID mRNA shots, is oncogenic by its nature.

[00:55:38] Bret Weinstein: And so you've got this ongoing contamination story from polio vaccine manufacture that now finds its way into mRNA vaccine manufacture. And the public took a shot that they were wrongly told had passed safety testing. And then the shot they were actually given wasn't the same shot. It wasn't the same shot. So that is a shocking fraud by people who did not care that safety testing was effectively not done on what the public was given and are now denying the wave of cancers that we're seeing. They're calling that misinformation.

[00:56:17] Sonia Elijah: Yes.

[00:56:17] Bret Weinstein: And, you know, at what point do you just say the source of information that is telling you the shot is safe, the shot is effective, the shot is not going to cause unintended consequences, the cancers that you see popping up all over the place are the result of some mystery we can't solve rather than the result of the shot. That source of information is compromised. It's lying to you on every front. And what that means is you should be on your guard. And sorry, I don't mean to rant, but the fact that at this moment, not only if the system had the slightest degree of decency or honesty to it, then the wave of harms that came from these shots would have caused it to reverse course. Yeah. It would have thought differently about all of the mRNA platform vaccines that are currently under development.

[00:57:13] Bret Weinstein: It would have stopped giving these vaccines to anybody, frankly, especially children, pregnant women. At the moment, we are ratcheting up the production of these things for children. Yeah. What that tells you is that people who, if they were ever in the dark about the harms that these things were doing, if they were ever in the dark about the fact that they have no benefit whatsoever to children who tolerate COVID very well, they are now not in the dark.

[00:57:42] Bret Weinstein: They know that these things kill and they are still making them for kids. That's who you're dealing with. You're dealing with monsters.

[00:57:48] Sonia Elijah: It is. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's yeah, it's just it really the mind boggles and obviously the harms that they knew before. So I also, the book picks up on this particular FDA slide. I'm not sure if you're aware of that in October, 2020, this is during the FDA's VRBPAC meetings. And they had this presentation looking at the safety adverse events related to these mRNA shots. And a slide goes on for literally less split second. The slide of it is in my book, the screenshot. Literally for a few, I don't think it was meant to even be part of the presentation because they like put it on and it gets taken away.

[00:58:31] Sonia Elijah: But on this slide is, and this is from October, 2020, all the adverse events, the potential adverse events they were looking out for. And it's a whole list of like myocarditis, pericarditis, seizures, neurological issues, death, stroke, heart attack, all listed in this slide. This is before EUA was granted.

[00:58:55] Bret Weinstein: I remember the shocking moment. It was just like a peak behind the curtain. Yes. And what it told you is they knew and they were lying to the public.

[00:59:04] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the whole EUA, if you look at the EUA, emergency use authorization was only granted because there was no – this is the premise – the no available alternative safe treatment is available. We know that was a lie. We know that was complete lie because I also look at the blacklisting of early COVID treatment. This is particular with hydroxychloroquine I write about in the book Ivermectin. And it was a systematic attack to sort of smear these early cheap repurposed drugs so they could railroad through these shots using the EUA meeting that condition of no treatment available.

[00:59:56] Sonia Elijah: And it's this – I mean, I looked at what they did with their hydroxychloroquine. Now, it's interesting because you have this – you have this very high profile study that comes out. This is the Mehra et al study. I think it gets published in the Lancet. And it states that this is – they're looking at 96,000 patients. So, it's a huge data set. And they say that these patients that are taking HCQ, hydroxychloroquine have higher risk of cardiac adverse events, heart attacks essentially.

[01:00:31] Sonia Elijah: The data sets all came from one small unknown company based in Chicago called Surgisphere. And that became a huge scandal because they were later deemed – this study actually did get retracted, but it did so much damage – was all based on fraud, fraudulent data, never existed. And it was published in a prestigious journal like the Lancet. Out of that, you have on the same day the BBC, the New York Times, saying Trump's drug kills people, gives heart attacks essentially.

[01:01:06] Sonia Elijah: And this gets to all the HCQ arms of any trials being done, like the World Health Organization was doing a trial called Solidarity. You had Oxford University doing a trial – they also spend the hydroxychloroquine arm based on this. The EUA for hydroxychloroquine gets revoked, gets rescinded. But it was all based on a fraudulent study that gets retracted, but the harm's already done. It's like HCQ is now – you can't use it.

[01:01:39] Sonia Elijah: So, it's this – and then with ivermectin, I know you know a lot with ivermectin and what they can talk about, the infamous tweet that the FDA sent out.

[01:01:51] Bret Weinstein: They alerted me very helpfully that I am not a horse.

[01:01:54] Sonia Elijah: Yes, in case you're wondering, you're not an animal.

[01:01:56] Bret Weinstein: Yes, I had wondered, but I'm glad they settled that question for me.

[01:02:00] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. I mean, I look also – there's a snapshot of an internal confidential email between FDA officials, and they are bragging about this tweet. They're bragging about this post being, it's the most successful tweet ever. It's gone viral. And it's really – they wrote that tweet. Do you remember the Mississippi health message that got sent out? This is – it was in 2021. It was the summer of 2021, and they're saying that people are calling up because they're taking ivermectin and they're getting poisoned.

[01:02:36] Sonia Elijah: And there was this huge story that the Rolling Stone covers, the New York Times covers, like people are taking horse dewormer and they're getting poisoned. That whole story was false because – Yes, of course. Because when investigative journalists – I think it's like Linda Bonvie, she actually looked at, you know, what – how many – what was the percent – it was 70% – because they make a claim that it's 70% of calls coming through to the Mississippi State Health Department.

[01:03:09] Sonia Elijah: It ends up being just 2%. And of the 2%, it was just 11 calls that people were taking veterinary because there is a formulation for animals, but there's also a formulation for humans. And so that whole story was spun. It was all fake. And actually, I think the New York Times and the – they had to – they had to actually do a – update their articles based on it. But it caused this widespread fear and panic. People were demonized, like Joe Rogan for taking it. And I mean, it's just – it's all part of the whole propaganda machine.

[01:03:44] Bret Weinstein: It's pure propaganda. And once they cede one of these wrong ideas, the fact that they issue a correction later, it reaches almost no one. So people are still confused about ivermectin, a drug which for reasons I'm unclear on is so safe that it is almost impossible to take enough of it to do significant damage to yourself.

[01:04:07] Sonia Elijah: And it's listed on the World Health Organization's Essential List of Medicines as well, Brad.

[01:04:12] Bret Weinstein: It's an essential medicine. It's won a Nobel Prize for use in humans. And literally, I mean, I'm a little confused by your tale about hydroxychloroquine because I do know that it was represented as dangerous. I thought that the study in which it was shown to be dangerous had hugely overdosed the patient's – That's a different study. Different study. But so in that study, people literally died because in a safety test for hydroxychloroquine, they were given enough – Huge doses. Huge doses. So I'm forgetting what the scientific term for that is. Oh, yeah, it's murder, right? So you give people enough – No, I mean – Just the way you said it. Just the – What else are you going to do in this case? They literally gave people enough hydroxychloroquine to kill them in order that they could claim it was too dangerous to use for COVID because they knew damn well it was going to work.

[01:05:05] Bret Weinstein: But here's the other interesting wrinkle, which I don't think is widely understood. They derided hydroxychloroquine on the basis of the danger. One study is fraudulent. Another study is murder. Why didn't they do it with ivermectin? Because you can't. It's too safe. You couldn't get people to take enough of the stuff in order to claim it was dangerous. So what did they do? They ran a dozen studies in which they wildly underdosed people. They set ridiculous parameters so that it couldn't show effectiveness because, for example, the effectiveness was going to be judged relative to an endpoint of death and there wasn't enough death being caused by COVID to even see the effect.

[01:05:48] Bret Weinstein: Even still, if you go to the papers in which they showed that ivermectin was ineffective against COVID, these RCTs that we treat with religious reverence for no good reason, the papers actually say that even when you set up a study to fail, ivermectin is so effective that it still works. You have to look at the data. You can't look at what they say in the abstract. But if you look at the data, the effect is there even in cases where they set it up to fail. That's how good a drug it was.

[01:06:19] Bret Weinstein: So I just think that you have to understand how diabolical it is. You're literally willing to murder people in the hydroxychloroquine study. And then in the midst of a panic, in the midst of a situation where you're trying to sell a dangerous shot, you want to deny people a medicine that actually works really well for COVID and means that virtually every person, no matter how sick they are, is within range of a safe medical treatment.

[01:06:48] Bret Weinstein: How much of a monster do you have to be to think that?

[01:06:50] Sonia Elijah: Oh, yeah, huge. And you know what they did as well. The studies that did come out showing that ivermectin was very effective for early COVID treatment, they went after those studies. And they literally, I mean, I write about this, there was a group of so-called fraud, actually, they described themselves as fraud detectives. And, you know, went after all the studies showing that ivermectin was very effective, and they literally were like, hounded those scientists. They got, you know, trying to get these studies retracted, saying that they were fraudulent, making all these accusations, the BBC jumping on that bandwagon and promoting these sort of fraud detectives, this group.

[01:07:39] Sonia Elijah: But so it wasn't even, and then there was also a lot of scientists who were actually trying to get their papers published into the scientific journals, but they couldn't, they were always getting rejected. So it's a very multi-pronged attack.

[01:07:57] Bret Weinstein: And the most, the clearest bit of proof, I thought, came from the video that Tess Lawrie captured. I've forgotten the name of the, so Tess Lawrie had published a meta-analysis that had looked at the ivermectin studies and showed very clearly that it works. Then another meta-analysis came out that said it didn't. And she confronted the author in what he thought was a private discussion. And he admitted that he had changed the conclusion of the study under pressure from a funder.

[01:08:37] Bret Weinstein: And this is all captured on video. You can just see the fraud. He took a medicine known to be very useful against COVID, wrote a paper that said it was not useful against COVID and admitted that the conclusion was because a funder wanted it written that way.

[01:08:56] Sonia Elijah: Huge, highly conflicted person, conflicts of interest.

[01:09:00] Bret Weinstein: That's not even a conflict. That's just a scientific fraudster. He should be working in a fast food truck.

[01:09:07] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, he was affiliated with Oxford University. Yeah.

[01:09:10] Bret Weinstein: Proud moment for them, I'm sure.

[01:09:12] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[01:09:14] Sonia Elijah: I know. It is really, it's just, yeah. When you really take a look just to have a breath and to think, oh, it's just so much was done, so many crimes committed. And we haven't even talked about the testing, Bret, the whole PCR test, all the sort of, I mean, this was the vehicle that they used to perpetuate lockdowns, right? To keep lockdowns going.

[01:09:39] Bret Weinstein: To cultivate fear.

[01:09:41] Sonia Elijah: Fear.

[01:09:42] Bret Weinstein: Of a virus. Fear, which is in and of itself harmful.

[01:09:44] Sonia Elijah: It's ramping up fear.

[01:09:45] Bret Weinstein: Ramping up fear, which was true from the get go, which goes back to the issue of the tabletop exercises. I think one of the things, I'm going to let you roll here in a second, but I think one of the things that was most diabolical and frankly, most brilliant from the perspective of the folks who orchestrated this was they created terror in our doctors and nurses before the virus ostensibly arrived in the US.

[01:10:17] Bret Weinstein: And the purpose of that, I think, was clear that they needed, frankly, the doctors to institute protocols that were in themselves dangerous.

[01:10:29] Sonia Elijah: Yes.

[01:10:29] Bret Weinstein: And fatally so in many, many cases they needed to create bodies in order to claim that COVID was so deadly that we would need the controls that you're pointing to. And so they gave the, you know, all of the phony stuff that came out of China, the guy falling down in the street, right? The guy riding his bike in a hazmat suit, right? That was all done so that before it came, people were primed for a terrifying plague. And the fact is, I actually think COVID is a dangerous disease.

[01:11:00] Bret Weinstein: It's not a very deadly disease and readily treatable, but they needed everybody to think there's nothing that can be done for this disease. It can't be controlled. It's very deadly. You doctors are going to be on the front lines. You're going to be in contact with sick people. We don't know how many of you are going to survive, right? They created that fear and then they leveraged it and they kept leveraging it. And the testing is one of the ways they did it.

[01:11:22] Sonia Elijah: They did absolutely. So you have, going back to my timeline in the book, so early January, actually January 10th was when the genomic sequence was uploaded to virological.org. This is by Edward Holmes. He was working with the Chinese team at the time. So three days later, January 13th, you've got, now this is the German virologist, Professor Christian Drosten. So he he comes out with this PCR test protocol that gets authorized by the World Health Organization just three days after, think about that, just three days after the genomic sequence is uploaded. Okay. He develops this test for it, this protocol.

[01:12:06] Sonia Elijah: And out of that comes the Corman-Drosten paper that was published in Eurosurveillance, where he happens to be the editor-in-chief. Okay. And this paper gets somehow mysteriously passes peer review process within 24 hours. And it is adopted as the gold standard for, you know, this is the test we're going to use to diagnose COVID. When the actual inventor of the PCR technique, Dr. Kary Mullis, we have him clearly stating interviews dated in the late nineties, stating, "This has never been designed to for diagnosis. It should never be used as such as a diagnostic tool."

[01:12:49] Sonia Elijah: And this is essentially, you know, they do the reverse. They use it as a, you know, it's going to detect you've got COVID. And, you know, it's just, again, a lot of conflicts of interest because one of the, another co-author of that paper, a colleague of his, he had a German biotech company based in Berlin who was shipping out PCR tests on January 10th, the same day. I mean, it's insane to Hong Kong. This is, I've got screenshots of it. There's a German newspaper picked this up at the time and a huge conflicts of interest. And it happened to be the same team that did the whole, when SARS came out, it was Christian Drosten and his team who developed again, a testing kit for SARS. And I mean, you've got this, it is a billion dollar industry, right?

[01:13:44] Sonia Elijah: The whole diagnostics, the countermeasures, all of this. And what we saw after 3/11, we saw this massive transfer of wealth as well.

[01:13:54] Bret Weinstein: Huge upward transfer of wealth.

[01:13:59] Sonia Elijah: We haven't discussed this. I mean, that is huge. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just that you have to think who gained, who gained from it, who gained from this disruptive event?

[01:14:06] Bret Weinstein: So many people.

[01:14:06] Sonia Elijah: So many people.

[01:14:07] Bret Weinstein: Back to the tabletop exercise. Yeah. So you've got all of these people who are poised to make a fortune on this event for which there was a subtle little announcement that something might be coming down the pike. And just to complete the picture, I can't help but wonder about Kary Mullis' death. People die. Sometimes it happens at a coincidental moment just because that's the nature of life.

[01:14:32] Sonia Elijah: It was just before, do you remember his death? It was early 2020 or late 2019?

[01:14:39] Bret Weinstein: I think it was late 2019. Okay. And so he dies. He's on record saying, you can't use this for diagnosis for a reason that most people will not quite understand, but it's very simple to understand if you know what PCR is. So PCR, what Kary Mullis invented was a system for taking a tiny amount of DNA or RNA and amplifying it into a huge amount by getting it to duplicate itself. So if you ever played the game of, you know, you put a one grain of rice on the first space of the chessboard and you double it in the second space and you keep going and the numbers grow astronomically. Yes. So the basic point is PCR as a technique is highly sensitive to something called the cycle threshold. How many doublings you put it through.

[01:15:28] Bret Weinstein: And the point is if you have the tiniest bit of contamination, you can amplify it and make it show as present. So, you know, imagine you're, okay, you've got a laboratory and they're doing COVID tests. Well, there's going to be some COVID RNA floating around that lab, right? You've got how many samples coming in from how many people. And the point is this test will amplify the tiniest bit of contamination that doesn't say anything about a live virus at all.

[01:15:54] Bret Weinstein: It will amplify it into a positive test. So if you want to create the impression that this virus is everywhere and spreading rapidly, all you've got to do is turn up the cycle threshold of the PCR. And the fact is most people, when you say the cycle threshold was what? They're like, what's a cycle threshold? Right? They don't know.

[01:16:14] Sonia Elijah: They use 30, I think over 35 you're guaranteed. So what's interesting, I'm glad you mentioned this point because just recently, I think last year, Germany released a study when they analyzed all the PCR tests from the 2020-21 period. I think 85%, as high as 85% were false positives. Right. Of course, of course they would be. Because they use such a high cycle threshold, I think 35 plus or something. Right. Yeah.

[01:16:43] Bret Weinstein: Now imagine, just rerun the pandemic in your mind with Kary Mullis alive. Now Kary Mullis was among other things, a courageous outspoken person.

[01:16:53] Sonia Elijah: Yeah.

[01:16:54] Bret Weinstein: He knew Anthony Fauci was a diabolical, unscientific guy. Yes. He would have been screaming bloody murder about the abuse of the technology for which he won a Nobel prize. And everybody in the public would be saying, it would have been like a second Robert Malone. Robert Malone is telling you, hey, this technology I invented is not safe to inject into people. Kary Mullis would have been saying, hey, this technology I invented is not valid as a test of whether or not you're sick with this disease.

[01:17:22] Bret Weinstein: Right. So his death, coincidental or not, so convenient for those who decided that they wanted control and were going to use COVID to get it.

[01:17:34] Sonia Elijah: But even if he remained alive, he would

[01:17:36] Sonia Elijah: have been censored anyway, Bret. Do you think his thing would have gotten out? Think of all the scientists that were trying to raise the alarm, all these dissenting voices, they were all silenced.

[01:17:50] Sonia Elijah: Essentially to the vaccine injured and deplorable as well. I mean, we haven't even gone about the censorship of those groups, how they were treated and they were just all your, you know, these are anti-vax groups. I mean, we had the BBC flag and they actually flagged this and we see with you, they were leading the trusted news initiative. What they were doing, they were systematically alerting Facebook, big tech that these groups are using carrot emojis to circumvent the censors.

[01:18:22] Sonia Elijah: So a huge article comes out by the BBC. This is what we're doing. And these are, you know, and they're labeling these injured people as anti-vax groups. Okay. These people have been injured.

[01:18:33] Bret Weinstein: Injured by a shot. By a shot. Demonstrating they're not anti-vax.

[01:18:37] Sonia Elijah: Exactly. Exactly. And they're being taken down. So it's just, yeah, it's just so deplorable.

[01:18:43] Bret Weinstein: Well, to your point though about Kary Mullis would have been censored. I have no doubt that he would have been. But now we run the pandemic without Robert Malone. We would have been in a lot worse shape. Yeah. And the fact is he was censored.

[01:18:56] Sonia Elijah: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:18:57] Bret Weinstein: As were we. I mean, my podcast was demonetized for five years.

[01:19:02] Sonia Elijah: When you were discussing Ivermectin with Steve Kirsch and Robert Malone.

[01:19:06] Bret Weinstein: They took it offline. It's still not on YouTube and demonetized us for five years. They, you know, they put a big ding in our ship for sure, but they didn't silence us. They tried. They would have thrown us off of YouTube if Joe Rogan hadn't stepped in. I'm almost certain of that. And as it was, they left us unmonetized, but essentially free to speak. And then they've slandered us and all of that. But the point is every person who had a position from which to speak about what was taking place to reveal what was being done and for what purpose, all of those people played an important role in bringing the public out of the darkness. Yes. So I think we would have been much better off if Kary Mullis had lived.

[01:19:56] Bret Weinstein: And yeah, I mean, it doesn't take very many of those people to reveal that effectively organized crime has dressed itself in a lab coat and a stethoscope and gone about administering dangerous drugs.

[01:20:15] Sonia Elijah: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[01:20:20] Bret Weinstein: So where are we now, as you see it?

[01:20:26] Sonia Elijah: Where are we now? I do. I am quite optimistic person. I mean, I do see that we, I think people are a little bit more clued up with what's going on. I think they're less, I think they're aware more of the legacy media spinning, spinning these stories and essentially being, you know, a form of propaganda, particularly the BBC. So I think there are people who are waking up to it. I mean, essentially the reason my aim of writing this book was to arm people with knowledge and truth. I believe truth and knowledge is the antidote to all the lies, everything that went on.

[01:21:06] Sonia Elijah: So if you can, and you mentioned bringing people out of the darkness, you know, it is, it's like wake up because I don't know if we'll ever get full accountability for all of what went on. I just don't see that happening. We had the COVID inquiry, which I see as the biggest, you know, whitewashing exercise, right? And it was the most expensive public inquiry ever done as well. This is taxpayers money.

[01:21:31] Sonia Elijah: And they just essentially say, oh, we should have locked down a week earlier. We should have done this. We should have done that, you know, nonsense. And they have, you know, interviewing and, you know, bringing people into question the same scientists who were all about lockdowns saying again, we should have just locked down earlier. And, but where we are now, yeah, optimistic, I think people are a bit more awake. They realize they have to do their own research and also look to independent media, right? You know, like your podcast and independent journalists, like myself, writing about these things. It's like you can't just, whatever you hear on the television is the truth. You know, you've got to wake up. So, but I do see us, I see the landscape being much more, it's a centralized, this digital control is very alarming to me.

[01:22:29] Sonia Elijah: And then you have to couple that with AI, artificial intelligence. Imagine mass surveillance powered by AI, monitoring you in real time, where you're going, what you're buying, you know,

[01:22:41] Bret Weinstein: plus a thousand AI bots shaping every conversation so that the next time this happens, you will feel like, you know, the skeptics are on board this time or something like that. It's frightening. And, you know, if there's one thing that I would wish out of this short of a Nuremberg trial for those who orchestrated this, which I think is fully justified and we'd be very smart to do it. But short of that, if I could wish for one thing, it's for people to understand the connection between the COVID catastrophe and the creeping changes in our civil liberties, right? The digital ID, the censorship, all of the little incremental things that are being done now, while we don't have a pretend emergency taking over the world, those are being done in preparation for the next one.

[01:23:41] Sonia Elijah: Yes.

[01:23:41] Bret Weinstein: And if you allow it to happen, because it doesn't seem that important, you know, oh, well, you know, maybe I don't want a real ID to go on a flight, but I'm already, you know, I've already got a government ID and their cameras all over the, if you think that way, right? If you think, well, yeah, I don't want to centralize bank digital currency, but I already use a credit card. It's the same thing. If you start allowing it to be done to you because you can talk yourself into it, then the next time you're not going to understand why you don't have a Robert Malone, right? The connection is clear. You needed the dissidents this time. They went through hell to make sure you had access to real information.

[01:24:22] Sonia Elijah: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:22] Bret Weinstein: You now need to protect the things that they're worried about. They're worried about it for a reason and they know because they've seen it. So I don't know how we can get people there. I think reading your book would be a marvelous first step. I mean, it's like a post-mortem on this tremendous trauma that the world went through together.

[01:24:43] Sonia Elijah: Well, I see it as a live indictment more than a post-mortem. All right.

[01:24:47] Bret Weinstein: I take back post-mortem. A live indictment. Very nice.

[01:24:51] Sonia Elijah: You know, it's a turning, it's still unfolding. This is it. It continues. So people think, Oh, why did you store it? It isn't. It's we're in a new era. You know, I see it as a new era of, like you're saying, surveillance, digital control, the censorship. It's all been ramped up. So the architecture that was all put in place for COVID is just now being repurposed. Right. And I also just wanted to make a point with what it's a small, it's important. I want to raise it is what they did with trying to hide excess deaths.

[01:25:26] Sonia Elijah: We know this has been a, this has happened, right? And this is all coming out of after the vaccine rollout. I'm not saying it's the only reason, you know, cause there was a lot of people were, they couldn't access healthcare at the time. They were being turned away. But I would say the UK health security agency, and this is also in the book, I'm not sure if you were aware, they refusing to release any data, patient data linking the COVID shots with excess deaths. And they were taken to a tribunal. Dr. Clare Craig was really pushing for this.

[01:26:03] Sonia Elijah: And they refused on the most crazy grounds that if they were to release the data, people would be emotionally so distressed, especially the bereaved families and anti-vax groups would use it for spreading disinformation. Okay. It is crazy, right?

[01:26:22] Bret Weinstein: I mean, it's, it's actually inhuman in the following sense. Imagine the worst happens. You get the phone call that somebody very close to you has died unexpectedly. Yes. Your first question is what happened? Nobody is uninterested in what happened. Nobody. It is not human for you not to want to know. So the idea that we're going to protect the families from evidence about what happened to their loved ones, that's insane, especially in light of the fact they haven't pulled the shots from the market. So the point is the people who haven't taken them or have taken some and are thinking of continuing to take more, they have a right to that information. And anybody who is hiding that information is signing up for the equivalent of murder.

[01:27:16] Bret Weinstein: There are people who will die from COVID shots that have yet to be administered because the information that might have woken them up is not being released by you for some bullshit reason. So I guess what I would say is this, even if you give them the benefit of every doubt, the pandemic was organic. It was a surprise. They brought out a shot under confusing circumstances. They didn't know how bad it was at the point that there were more adverse events in the first year as a result of that shot than all previous vaccines combined over 30 years. Then they did know they had a problem and they continued to inject it to children for whom they had the evidence it did no good whatsoever. So all of the people who died because of the games that they played, that is a mass murder.

[01:28:07] Bret Weinstein: That's not an exaggeration. It's mass murder. And so those mass murderers, how many of them have gone to jail? Let's count. It's none. So they're out there walking around, having dinner at the restaurant next to you. They need to be held to account. And until we do, you're right. It's not a post-mortem. This is very live.

[01:28:28] Sonia Elijah: Absolutely. And it's interesting because, for example, the covering up of the crimes, for example, the data. So I was looking, you remember that the group of medical professionals in the US that took the FDA to court to release all the documents that they had on Pfizer to authorize the shot?

[01:28:46] Bret Weinstein: Oh yeah. Because Pfizer wasn't going to release them for 75 years.

[01:28:49] Sonia Elijah: Actually, with the FDA with Pfizer, but the FDA was saying, "No, we're going to wait for the public to wait until 2096, something crazy." I was one of the first journalists. This is towards the end of 2021. I was writing about this for trial site news and I looked and I was going through. So this is all on this website. I was literally going through thousands of documents, Bret. And I came across this cumulative adverse event reports, post-puses, post-authorization within the first 90 days. Okay.

[01:29:21] Sonia Elijah: So this is buried in this trove of documents that get released end of 2021. I write about this report. I analyze the numbers insane. 1,228 deaths the first 90 months, 48,000 cases of adverse events, eight pages of all these lists of all these various horrible events that you would get. I was interviewed by an Australian media company so that video of me talking about my report using Pfizer's own data. This is just literally using their own data. It goes viral.

[01:29:57] Sonia Elijah: It goes three million views in like 24 hours. And this is crazy. It gets just taken down and is obviously going back to the whole sense. It gets taken down. I don't know if this agency gets demonetized. It was Kalkine Media, I think, at the time. But I was speaking the truth. I was just saying this is Pfizer's. This is just warning people, essentially. This is what's going on. It gets removed, gets taken down. And it's just, yeah, covering up the data that they don't want people to see is awful. I also interview in the book this Dutch, a brilliant Dutch analyst, Wouter Aukema.

[01:30:39] Sonia Elijah: So he managed to develop this sort of software with his team where he was able to download eudrovigilance. So eudrovigilance is the database. It's like VAERS. It's the EU's equivalent of VAERS, of safety monitoring, you know, vaccines and other medicinal products. He was able to download, I think, like 15 million files. And it was shocking what was revealed. So he revealed there was three times more adverse events reported for the COVID shots, you know, Moderna, Pfizer, J&J, all of those, compared to any other medicinal product over 20-year period.

[01:31:24] Sonia Elijah: It's a really shocking number, okay. But not only that, he also uncovered that the EMA or we don't know who was doing it, 40% of the serious adverse reports, this includes death, were being systematically, they disappeared. They were being removed. And then he actually did some more digging and he realized what was going on. Every time a case report, you get a number, a case report number gets assigned to it. If that narrative, if that report gets changed a bit, like even adding a comma or a period or whatever it is, full stop, a new number gets assigned. So what you have is a floating duck syndrome thing where you can't find the original document. So it's just to hide.

[01:32:15] Sonia Elijah: And this is only for the COVID shots this happened with. And it's 40% of only the serious adverse event reports.

[01:32:24] Bret Weinstein: I mean, it's- Yeah. It's obviously intentional. It's, yeah. This is- This is-

[01:32:29] Sonia Elijah: Just to hide. This is talking about hiding the crimes.

[01:32:32] Bret Weinstein: It is, I'm struggling to think of a more egregious coverup that we have ever become aware of. And you know, it really is the important message. You can't let this go because they're not done with you. They have other shots on the drawing board. They have mandates on their minds. They have all of these techniques to disguise the true signal about what's hazardous and what's safe. And they demonstrated depraved indifference. So the reason that we can't let this go is that those monsters are still powerful.

[01:33:12] Bret Weinstein: We've done much better than they expected, I think, with respect to exposing them, but to the extent that most of the public has moved on, it's a terrible error and we need to fix it. We need to get to the bottom of this now and you've done a huge service with this beautiful book.

[01:33:27] Sonia Elijah: Thank you. Thank you very much, Bret. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:30] Bret Weinstein: Thank you.

[01:33:31] Bret Weinstein: All right. Sonia Elijah, where can people find you?

[01:33:34] Sonia Elijah: Right. So I have a sub stack, Sonia Elijah Investigates. And I also have a podcast there as well with the sub stack. And yeah, they can find me SoniaElijah.com. They can also, you know, find me on X. I'm at Sonia_Elijah.

[01:33:55] Bret Weinstein: And they can buy your marvelous book.

[01:33:57] Sonia Elijah: And they can buy my book, yeah, every, I mean, any online book outlet store sells it.

[01:34:03] Bret Weinstein: Including Amazon as well. Well, I hope it's a huge success. It certainly deserves to be. And anyway, thank you very much for the work you've been doing on this. It's really a service to all of humanity.

[01:34:12] Sonia Elijah: Thank you for all your work as well, Bret.

[01:34:14] Bret Weinstein: Thank you. All right. Thanks for joining everybody.